BREAKTHROUGH!!! (I have finally broken the embouchure code, I think.)

[sabutin]

So in order to achieve that breakthrough, any other trombone player has to be:
1) proficient at freebuzzing;

Or become proficient at it.

Really proficient.

Remember...I have been using freebuzzing in a particular manner daily for well over 15 years. Putting the buzz on the rim, the m'pce and the horn fairly smoothly, back and forth in all possible combinations and permutations of those possibilities. This new discovery is just a more efficient way of finding the proper internal resonance system that will allow me to play at a high level of balance.

2) able to sing a sound consisting of partials he is interested in?

More than that. Through the use of partial study...and vocal work is the only way that I know how to do this study...one must learn how to hear sound as a chord rather than just as a note. As a chord and a note. I am at a loss as to how to teach this over the internet, however. In person...it's a cinch. A child can learn it. In fact, children have less trouble learning it than do adults. Been there, done that. I have tried relatively low-level recording of the technique and the overtones are barely audible. I suppose I ought to go into a good studio...I could record it in about 15 minutes, I am sure. But then how well will it reproduce on the crappy speakers most people use?

Best idea?

Take a lesson with me.

Sorry, but there it is.

It's not as if I'm not all over the world in any given year. I'll be near Toulose, France next weekend, in California, probably Texas and possibly a number of other places in November (I'm putting together some sort of teaching tour as we speak), and anyone who wants to do so can organize a small clinic with about 15 or more interested people that will get me almost anywhere in the world at a reasonable cost to the participants...airfare, food and shelter plus a small profit are all I require. Other than that? I have looked for teaching examples of this technique all over the web and have found none. I guess other people have the same problem as do I. It's an acoustic technique that does not translate very well to recorded media.

Or is there any other way around? Because as much as I wish I could do it, I have no slightest idea how to isolate partials in my voice, and I'd like to try out your disovery.

No other way around it that I know. You can either isolate 16 or so partials above your voice or you can't. I cannot tell you how to do it, only show you. So it goes. I'll tell you this...if I was seriously studying a brass instrument and someone who had thoroughly proven himself to be a serious, no-jive player and teacher said that he had broken the embouchure code, I would be on a bus, train or airplane and headed to his neighborhood as soon as I could scrape up the money to do so.

Bet on it.

It's not as if I am hustling my wares here...hell, I have given away a great deal of what I know on the web for more than 10 years. i just can't lay this on y'all if I'm not there in person.

Stay tuned...maybe I'll figure out a way to do it.

Later...

S.

[petrobone]

I'll watch how this idea evolves. Right now I'm a poor student of sound engeering (in fact I start in october) but if you ever (somehow) get near Poland let me know, if I get some spare money I could probably travel some distance for a lesson.

[sabutin]

I'll watch how this idea evolves. Right now I'm a poor student of sound engeering (in fact I start in october) but if you ever (somehow) get near Poland let me know, if I get some spare money I could probably travel some distance for a lesson.

Stay on this site, petrobone. I will post all of my travels. The closest I am getting to Poland as of now is near Toulose, France next week and that's not very close at all. But the phone rings and everything changes...

Stay tuned.

S.

[KyleJohnson]

When you say you work on controlling the formants/overtones of your voice, do you mean that you do overtone singing? (link to overtone singing demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0nI2f98ykw)

I understand that your new way of playing trombone has improved your tone, attacks, and interval leaps. Has it affected your flexibility? Are you able to do fast lip slurs/trills the same, better, or worse?

[sabutin]

When you say you work on controlling the formants/overtones of your voice, do you mean that you do overtone singing? (link to overtone singing demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0nI2f98ykw)

This one's more of a tutorial, but yeah, that's the idea.

However...when applying it to the horn, I do not start with an "OOO" lip setup but rather wirh my chops set in some semblance of an embouchure. Only slightly more open.

Which "embouchure?

That's the trick. This overtone singing--->buzzing thing only happens with the "right" embouchure. Unbalanced? Too much lip? Too little? Too much of one lip and not enough of the other? Unbalanced to the left or to the right? No buzz...or at least a very poor one, one that does not translate well into the rim, m'pce and/or horn.

The Goldilocks buzz is what is needed here.

Well balanced.

Not too much, not too little.

Juuuuust right.

A man named Fred Elias wrote a trumpet book in the 1920s called "The Elias Modern Scientific Trumpet Method". Here is a picture of its cover:



He had many admirers, not the least of whom was the great trumpet virtuoso Herbert L. Clarke.

Here is how he described his buzzing approach:

Buzz playing is the secret of tone. There are two kinds of buzzing sounds that are made with the lips, they are the rough and the fine buzz.

Now what we are after is the fine kind, because this means fine tone.

Did you ever see a fly flying against a window pane? Have you noticed the buzzing sound he makes?

Did you ever have a mosquito buzz around your ear? Have you noticed the buzzing sound he makes?

This is the kind of buzz we are after.

Now...I found that description to me a little too non-specific for my tastes. I thought maybe it might be trumpet-specific at best. I continued on my own way with freebuzzing, dealing with whatever buzz worked. A bigger buzz? Well, yeah. Sometimes. We play louder now plus I am buzzing down through the double pedals.

But...whaddaya know? What do I get when I use this overtone thing?

A "finer" buzz.

And it works better. too.

A finer sound.

Hmmmmm....



HMMMMMMMmmmmmmmm....

I understand that your new way of playing trombone has improved your tone, attacks, and interval leaps. Has it affected your flexibility? Are you able to do fast lip slurs/trills the same, better, or worse?

Better flexibility. In fact, a little too much sometimes. If I'm not playing (and hearing) accurately the partials will flip much more easily than before.

Small price to pay. I played an acoustic double A as a climax to a solo in the Longo funk band tonight that covered a bashing drummer (Good bashing. It's funk, after all...) an electric piano and an amplified electric bass. Wiped 'em out. I have never had that kind of power up there, and the connections down through other ranges are working better than I have any right to expect as well. Not after three weeks.

Only downside besides a certain over-flexiblity if I'm not careful? A tendency to take the upper range buzz setting down too far with a resultant thinning of the sound. But my regular settings are unaffected by the new ones. In fact...they are better too. I'm using this idea throughout the ranges when I practice. I just have to remember what I'm doing a little more than I used to bde the case when in mid-flight, and I think that as I internalize this approach further those kinds of adjustments will get more and more automatic as well.

As another side benefit, I hardly need to warm up now. My usual necessary 20+ minute warmup is down to 5 minutes or less. Buzz a little, connect a little and there I am.

It's knocking me out.

Really.

More later. I'm playing a long, strenuous lead gig with the Latin Giants on Friday and an Orthodox Jewish wedding on Saturday. (Talk about culture shock!!!) Now...this could all fall apart, but somehow I do not think so. It feels so solid!!!

Like I said.

More later...

S.

[KyleJohnson]

In the first post you said that you generally isolate the 5th and 6th partials. Do you isolate both of these at the same time or just individually?

Whenever I do overtone singing, I usually have a very high tongue position.To get the upper overtones (8th partial & up) the tip of my tongue is touching the roof of my mouth. Also, the aperture is usually much more open than when playing trombone. If I try to sing with a more "trombonish" embouchure (with the tongue in a lower position and a smaller aperture), the overtones don't has as much clarity. Do you have to sacrifice any clarity of overtones when singing/buzzing with an embouchure than works for trombone?

Whenever I try to transfer the singing to a buzz I usually end up doing multiphonics by mistake.

After I start the buzz, I usually can't hear the overtones come out like they do when I sing.

I was taught that buzzing is either "airy" or "buzzy" (for lack of a better term). I suppose this is kind of what Elias meant by the "rough buzz" and the "fine buzz." I'm not sure if I agree with the mosquito analogy. If I try to make my buzz more like a mosquito, I end up with a pinched tone.

How does your new embouchure affect your soft playing?

[sabutin]

In the first post you said that you generally isolate the 5th and 6th partials. Do you isolate both of these at the same time or just individually?

Both in my own practice and in liistening to many students, the best sounds are those that emphasize the 5th and 6th partials...at least they are in the ranges where those partials are easily heard. In keeping with my oft-stated "As above, so below" idea, i am assuming that this holds true on up into the various brass stratospheres. I very often hear those two overtones almost fighting for dominance. Sort of like the beginning of the bridge to "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" at a very slow tempo.

Whenever I do overtone singing, I usually have a very high tongue position.To get the upper overtones (8th partial & up) the tip of my tongue is touching the roof of my mouth. Also, the aperture is usually much more open than when playing trombone. If I try to sing with a more "trombonish" embouchure (with the tongue in a lower position and a smaller aperture), the overtones don't has as much clarity. Do you have to sacrifice any clarity of overtones when singing/buzzing with an embouchure than works for trombone?

Clarity?

No.

Volume?

I haven't worked them much for volume. David Hykes never mentioned the tongue. He just said hum a note and then open up the vowel sounds and listen. As far as mouth position is concerned, although I certainly get easy overtones by forming a sort of OOO-ish bell shape with my lips, I can also roll them into a very narrow, trumpet-like setting and still get clear overtones. They're just not as pretty.

Whenever I try to transfer the singing to a buzz I usually end up doing multiphonics by mistake.

Old vaudeville routine:

Patient walks into the doctor's office, raises his arm above his head, and says "It hoits when I do dis. "

The doctor says... "Don't DO  dat !!!"

Don't make that mistake.

Don't DO dat!!!

After I start the buzz, I usually can't hear the overtones come out like they do when I sing.

You mean the freebuzz? Or on the horn. I can't hear them on the freebuzz eithjer. But once I put that buzz on the horn...there they are again.

I was taught that buzzing is either "airy" or "buzzy" (for lack of a better term). I suppose this is kind of what Elias meant by the "rough buzz" and the "fine buzz." I'm not sure if I agree with the mosquito analogy. If I try to make my buzz more like a mosquito, I end up with a pinched tone.

Yup.

That's what this approach solves. No "thinking" about insects, refinement of sound or anything else that is in the least bit subjective. Either the overtones are sounding above the sung note or they are not, and either your lips are in some sort of position where you can:

     A-Successfully transfer the sung note to the buzzed note.

and

   B- Equally successfully transfer the buzz to the horn with a "good" (here's that pesky subjective thing again)
    sound.

or they are not.

I have been transferring all kinds of buzzes to the horn as a major part of my practice for 15 years or so. As a result, the second idea is easy for me. I know how to adjust into the rim...any rim... no matter how I am freebuzzing. And...I personally had no problem with the first idea either.

This is one reason that i started the current thread. I know that what happens easily for one person...remember, I have been singing overtones as part of a morning meditation for quite a while...doesn't necessarily happen easily for another.

Keep asking.

How does your new embouchure affect your soft playing?

Great.

More control, less interference when I have to articulate, better sound.

It's just flat-out working so far, Kyle.

If I find any downsides, rest assured that I will mention them. I'm not trying to sell any snakeoils here, just exploring the horn.

And sharing the adventure.

Later...

S.

[Matt James]

Sam,
wow... this is cool.  couple questions, as I'm just now figuring out harmonic singing (so far I can bring out the 5th, 13th and 14th partials audibly), no chance yet to apply it to the horn:

1.  When you're singing a note with a prominent 5th or 6th partial overtone, are you always using the same vowel (more or less) or can you reproduce it across the range of vowels?

2. When you apply this to the horn, are you able to bring out overtones as audibly as you can when singing?

As to the why-- I'm only speculating-- I'd guess that by bringing out the overtones, your lips are vibrating in a highly complex, more efficient way.  In other words less of your lip mass is committed to the fundamental, because smaller segments of the lip are vibrating the harmonics.  A far more subtle motion... one that might allow greater flexibility, and use far less energy, while still allowing, among other things, projection.  Again, speculating, trained male singers tend to have that big formant area around 2500 to 3000hz that allows them to project over a loud orchestra... we are in a similar "voice range" to them-- I wonder if you are not only strengthening the "good" partials in the sound (5 and 6) but also the ones further out?

Also, you are a real mensch for sharing your secrets so freely.  Keep it up please!

[sabutin]

Sam,
wow... this is cool.  couple questions, as I'm just now figuring out harmonic singing (so far I can bring out the 5th, 13th and 14th partials audibly), no chance yet to apply it to the horn:

Keep working at it. You eventually should be able to fairly easily isolate the 4th through the 16 partials in their entirety...just like on the horn, only not so loud. The lower partials tend to aurally disappear into the fundamental, or at least that's what happens with me.

1.  When you're singing a note with a prominent 5th or 6th partial overtone, are you always using the same vowel (more or less) or can you reproduce it across the range of vowels?

It is essentially by changing the "vowel" sounds...the shape of that oral cavity...that I produce all of the overtones. Any change in the physical system brings a change in the overtones.

2. When you apply this to the horn, are you able to bring out overtones as audibly as you can when singing?

No.

But you can hear them, especially after you have learned where to look (listen) for them through the use of overtone singing.

As to the why-- I'm only speculating-- I'd guess that by bringing out the overtones, your lips are vibrating in a highly complex, more efficient way.  In other words less of your lip mass is committed to the fundamental, because smaller segments of the lip are vibrating the harmonics.  A far more subtle motion... one that might allow greater flexibility, and use far less energy, while still allowing, among other things, projection.  Again, speculating, trained male singers tend to have that big formant area around 2500 to 3000hz that allows them to project over a loud orchestra... we are in a similar "voice range" to them-- I wonder if you are not only strengthening the "good" partials in the sound (5 and 6) but also the ones further out?

Could be. How much further out? Once the partials beginto bump up above human hearing range, the whole idea begins to get pretty dicey. Some people say that we "feel" them...especially high-end audio designers and listening freaks...others say "fuggedaboudit" and pull the aural reproduction plug once the frequencies get too high.

So far I am quite happy with what is happening without dealing in unnecessary cogitation. After all...all's I'm trying to do is play the horn better.

Also, you are a real mensch for sharing your secrets so freely.  Keep it up please!

I guess if they are shared then they're not secrets. Right?

Plus...I profit from the sharing. I learn how to communicate what I know in a more efficient way, and I work at least to some degree as a teacher. I do clinics, write books...it's all a win/win situation just as long as what I am communicating actually works.

Have fun...

I am.

Later...

S.

[Matt James]

Well, you're right of course, with time it becomes clearer.  It's partially range related for me-- in various parts of my vocal range the overtones are easier and clearer than in others.  Actually it seems like the overtones I'm bringing out are in a fairly narrow band, so if I sing an f below the bass clef staff, I can hit partials in the 12th and above-- likewise if I sing an octave or so higher I am hearing some of the lower partials.  Actually got a 3rd partial at one point...fleetingly.

I see what you mean about the 5th and 6th fighting for prominence... also ever get three at a time?  singing G flat in the bass staff, I was able to produce the 8th partial concurrently with the 5th and the 6th.

I was able to spend just a few minutes this morning applying this to the horn.  Yes, I can hear them, most prominently the 6th partial.  It is very soft... but it's there, if I listen.  And yes, the process of bringing this buzz to the horn has had some... surprising results.  Good results, though.  Not as earth-shaking as yours, Sam, but I think in the same vein.  I have a few services tomorrow, I want to see what happens, and I'll write more tomorrow or Monday.

[svenne]

This is an unusual (well, new) way of thinking in trombone methods, but I believe it is right on the money.
Tongue positions has been taught for ages, but this way of explaining and looking at the formants is very appealing to me. Really a breakthrough!

Would you recommend trying to purchase the Elias method? If it is possible?

[sabutin]

This is an unusual (well, new) way of thinking in trombone methods, but I believe it is right on the money.
Tongue positions has been taught for ages, but this way of explaining and looking at the formants is very appealing to me. Really a breakthrough!

Yes, I think that maybe it is. I am working hard at developing it now, and hope to have it in some sort of good, easily teachable form by fall if not sooner.

Would you recommend trying to purchase the Elias method? If it is possible?

Well...yes and no. It is relatively inexpensive...$18 US plus shipping at this website...and it is a nice artifact, an interesting piece of brass history. But it is just that...an artifact of a bygone age. There is nothing particularly "new" in it except for perhaps the proof that there is really nothing much "new" in the world, particularly in the brass world. I mean...people were playing the Brandenburg Concerti and the Mozart Horn Concerti hundreds of years ago without the use of valves!!! Imagine what they knew about embouchure and air.

Knowledge is found and lost over and over again in the ebb and flow of human cultures. If there is something "new" going on here, it is in the dissemination and storage of knowledge. Which is a huge "new", in my book. Even if some vicious fool were to throw up some sort of system tomorrow that could wipe the digital memories of the entire world clean in one blast, incalculable amounts of information have already been distributed to billions of people worldwide who as little as 20 years ago would not have had the slimmest chance of receiving it, and that is without a doubt the greatest revolution that has ever happened on the human level of this planet. Had I "discovered" this overtone idea in say 1960 or 1980, it would have taken years for me to reach even the number of people that have already read about it in the stretch of 3 or 4 days. I have posted it on six websites and a couple of mailing lists and the total number of hits on the various websites alone is already well over 4000. That is astounding to me!

Anyway...buy the Elias book if you have some money to spare, but stay tuned here for more info on this idea than the good Mr. Elias could have ever dreamed would ever arise.

To paraphrase Miranda in Shakespeare's The Tempest:

"O, wonder! How many goodly thoughts are there here! How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world, That has such ideas in't!"

I was once assured by a very wise man that humanity is the single part of this planet that continues the evolutionary progress that is necessary for any part of the universe to survive, and I have have no doubt whatsoever that he was correct in this matter. He also said that the understanding of the universe that exists in the bodies, minds and souls of literally millions here on earth now exceeds that of the wisest men and women that ever lived in bygone times. He more specific, and said that everyone in the particular room in which he was speaking knew more than Moses...who was in his time considered to be the wisest man on earth by many...had ever dreamed of knowing, and that this was just the way that evolution works.

Well...as above, so below. On this small level, the same process appears to be in operation.

Stay tuned.

It's gonna get even more interesting, I think.

Later...

S.

[bobriddle]

Sam,After finally having the time to view the videos.This is something I kind fell into,if you will as a youngster.We used to have a next door neighbor who sang this way and showed everyone inour neighborhood how to do it as well.I never thought of it as anything more than fun until I first started using a version of TCE without even realizing it.I do not move my lips in the manner taught as TCE.I will not even try to explain what I do embouchure-wise at this point because so much of what I do personally is tagh as wrong,can't work,would create a horrible tone quality,etc. What I will say is that your idea of USE WHAT WORKS is something more teachers need to understand and allow.I have come across many students who play well,but not using conventional approaches.Most are students who are in music for fun,some are not.Having said all of that I use my tongue in a very unconventional method which for me allows more complete freedom of attacks,flexibility over a wider range of the horn than most.My idea always has been and always will first and foremost to have fun playing and learning.I love reading all these comments on everyone elses journey.It helps re-enforce some of the ideas I have and helps me to question others.Great for personal and teaching growth.
VHY
Bob

[Matt James]

A couple more observations:

1. I had a teacher once who used to talk about "spinning the air off the roof of the mouth to make the note sparkle."  Whatever it was I did to make that happen feels very similar to what Sam is describing, with one exception.  Where that approach was a scattershot, sometimes hit or miss affair, Sam's is not... it's as if, by singing, then buzzing, then bringing it to the horn, you're fine-tuning the formants for that note.  In fact the whole experience of overtone singing reminds me of tuning in a shortwave radio... small motions.

2. Even ten minutes of this kind of fine tuning produces results all over the horn. Real world example: I play from time to time in the worship band at a big church here in the cities.  Kind of Chicago meets ToP sort of horn writing.  The horn line varies from week to week; yesterday it was alto, tenor, two trpts, and bone.  Given that instrumentation, about half of what I play are real bass parts and the rest are in the stratosphere.  I've approached this situation variously in the past (including two horns on the stand) but this weekend I thought I'd try to get by with my Bach 42B.  In a lot of ways it is the worst compromise... not enough sound in the bass range and not enough clarity in the high stuff.  So I tried it expecting it not to work (it's never really worked in this setting before).  But it did... especially the upper range.... all sorts of presence, clarity, sizzle... money sound... not what I anticipated, at all.  Low register was good, too, fat without blat (again, not what I'm used to on that horn).  The biggest thing seemed to be I didn't have to work as hard.

 I know what chop setting you're talking about, Sam, based on your description.  I've found it by mistake before and not known what to do with it.  For me it's less chop, less motion, less effort, less air, less work... and better results.  But it's also delicate, squirrely, and not quite balanced, especially across the whole range.  Well, not as much anymore.  While not as earth shattering as Sam's experience, I found two things yesterday that have never happened for me before on that gig, especially given my seemingly poor choice of horn.  First, I was all over the horn without fighting through the shifts like I normally would, especially in the trigger range (and this is on a 42 with a trad valve, so the trigger range is squirrelly as it gets).  The second thing was I had plenty of chops left at the end of the gig-- also highly unusual, given my equipment choice yesterday (and given how little I practice any more). 

Okay, so reading back over that, it actually is a bigger deal for me than I really thought.  Being able to work through what normally would be a seriously limiting set of compromises...yeah, that's worth getting excited about.

[sabutin]

A couple more observations:

1. I had a teacher once who used to talk about "spinning the air off the roof of the mouth to make the note sparkle."  Whatever it was I did to make that happen feels very similar to what Sam is describing, with one exception.  Where that approach was a scattershot, sometimes hit or miss affair, Sam's is not... it's as if, by singing, then buzzing, then bringing it to the horn, you're fine-tuning the formants for that note.  In fact the whole experience of overtone singing reminds me of tuning in a shortwave radio... small motions.

2. Even ten minutes of this kind of fine tuning produces results all over the horn. Real world example: I play from time to time in the worship band at a big church here in the cities.  Kind of Chicago meets ToP sort of horn writing.  The horn line varies from week to week; yesterday it was alto, tenor, two trpts, and bone.  Given that instrumentation, about half of what I play are real bass parts and the rest are in the stratosphere.  I've approached this situation variously in the past (including two horns on the stand) but this weekend I thought I'd try to get by with my Bach 42B.  In a lot of ways it is the worst compromise... not enough sound in the bass range and not enough clarity in the high stuff.  So I tried it expecting it not to work (it's never really worked in this setting before).  But it did... especially the upper range.... all sorts of presence, clarity, sizzle... money sound... not what I anticipated, at all.  Low register was good, too, fat without blat (again, not what I'm used to on that horn).  The biggest thing seemed to be I didn't have to work as hard.

This is precisely what I am finding. Word for word, feeling for feeling.

I know what chop setting you're talking about, Sam, based on your description.  I've found it by mistake before and not known what to do with it.

Me too.

Bet on it. 

For me it's less chop, less motion, less effort, less air, less work... and better results.  But it's also delicate, squirrely, and not quite balanced, especially across the whole range.  Well, not as much anymore.  While not as earth shattering as Sam's experience, I found two things yesterday that have never happened for me before on that gig, especially given my seemingly poor choice of horn.  First, I was all over the horn without fighting through the shifts like I normally would, especially in the trigger range (and this is on a 42 with a trad valve, so the trigger range is squirrelly as it gets).  The second thing was I had plenty of chops left at the end of the gig-- also highly unusual, given my equipment choice yesterday (and given how little I practice any more). 

Yup.

Okay, so reading back over that, it actually is a bigger deal for me than I really thought.  Being able to work through what normally would be a seriously limiting set of compromises...yeah, that's worth getting excited about.

Yup.

That it is.

Later...

S.