Harmonic singing as applied to trumpet.

[sabutin]

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[Jerry Freedman]

Reply works...

Have any trumpet players tried Sam's breakthrough with success. I have had a lot of fun with the harmonic singing in my car ( alone of course...I never lip buzz,squawk or now throat sing with witnesses)but I haven't been able to apply it to trumpet successfully.

[sabutin]

Reply works...

Have any trumpet players tried Sam's breakthrough with success. I have had a lot of fun with the harmonic singing in my car ( alone of course...I never lip buzz,squawk or now throat sing with witnesses)but I haven't been able to apply it to trumpet successfully.

Well first of all, Jerry...if you are producung the overtones by "throat singing" it's not going to work as a brass technique. Tuvan style throat singing depends on a partially closed throat to produce the fundamental, and that pretty well stops the whole idea of using the approach to set up the vocal cavity in a (more) efficient manner to match the demands of the horn.

If, on the other hand you are simply using the wrong name for the David Hykes style that I demonstrate in my videos (Vocal Overtones + Brass Embouchure #1 Part 1 + Vocal Overtones + Brass Embouchure #1, Part 2), then my answer is...no trumpet players so far, to my knowledge.

However...it works on the notes of the trombone that are above the range that I can sing, and it works on notes below my range too, so I suspect that it will function well on trumpet as well.

How are you applying it to the trumpet? What's your modus operandi?

S.

[Jerry Freedman]

I am not using Tuvan style. Its close to what you do.I got it from a youtube video by the same guy who did amazing grace. I am sloppy with my vocabulary. I get the higher harmonics by arching my tongue --either forward with an SSS formation or farther back with a KKK formation. Neither transfers well to my trumpet playing because I don't really use much of an arch at all when I play and this sort of messes me up

[sabutin]

I am not using Tuvan style. Its close to what you do.I got it from a youtube video by the same guy who did amazing grace. I am sloppy with my vocabulary. I get the higher harmonics by arching my tongue --either forward with an SSS formation or farther back with a KKK formation. Neither transfers well to my trumpet playing because I don't really use much of an arch at all when I play and this sort of messes me up

Just like going from freebuzzing to horn playing without stopping of the buzz, this technique requires some sort of compromise. And just as in that example, said compromise should be both timed in and...as much as possible...minimized. One way to minimize the freebuzz setting(s) is to try to take them off of the horn-playing settings. Play the note, take the horn off and maiatain the buzz. Another is to consciously copy those settings. And just as one can freebuzz 40 different ways but only a couple work in the horn/on the rim-m'pce system, ditto this. There are lots of ways to produce these overtones. Try 'em all and use what works best on the horn with the least necessary adjustment.

Later...

S.

[DarthVader]

Sam!!!!!!!!!!!


....



















I did it!!!!!


Woooo hooooo!!!!!!!!!


Feel freee to ask me for details, but I really do not know how I did it, I was just thinking of overtones and than it suddenly popped

[sabutin]

Sam!!!!!!!!!!!

I did it!!!!!


Woooo hooooo!!!!!!!!!


Feel freee to ask me for details, but I really do not know how I did it, I was just thinking of overtones and than it suddenly popped

Like that.

Sam

[Jerry Freedman]

Sam

Over on trumpet herald there is a big discussion over Adam Rapa using a kind of chinese Jew's Harp. He changes his oral cavitie with his tongue to change pitch on the instrument and claims that this is exactly the way he plays trumpet. The harmonic singing approach you are talking about sounds kinda similar. Comment?

[sabutin]

Sam

Over on trumpet herald there is a big discussion over Adam Rapa using a kind of chinese Jew's Harp. He changes his oral cavitie with his tongue to change pitch on the instrument and claims that this is exactly the way he plays trumpet. The harmonic singing approach you are talking about sounds kinda similar. Comment?

Precisely.

S.

[Flütro]

I read and saw it first time this morning and tried it - great.
Creating a sound generator from lung, oral cavity to the MP,
that produces the right frequence for the tone you want in the moment
gives a very easy feeling of playing.

I personally think (since 3 years), that even vibration of the lips
is a secondary phenomena and not the source of the tone/sound.
This way I play trumpet and also the Euphonium.
Pressure to the MP is nearly zero, good sound even when very much air passes
out (left and right - felt at the fingers) freely. Embouchure touches only a bit.   

I please you Sam to explain what is the the best way to do this kind of singing.
Or can I read and learn it in one of your books ?

Peter

[sabutin]

I read and saw it first time this morning and tried it - great.
Creating a sound generator from lung, oral cavity to the MP,
that produces the right frequence for the tone you want in the moment
gives a very easy feeling of playing.

I personally think (since 3 years), that even vibration of the lips
is a secondary phenomena and not the source of the tone/sound.
This way I play trumpet and also the Euphonium.
Pressure to the MP is nearly zero, good sound even when very much air passes
out (left and right - felt at the fingers) freely. Embouchure touches only a bit.   

I please you Sam to explain what is the the best way to do this kind of singing.
Or can I read and learn it in one of your books ?

Peter

I have not yet written about overtone singing in a book...too busy editing my newest book into treble clef and bass clef valved instruments editions...but it's really very simple. There are a number of videos on YouTube that describe the basics quite well. Look for "overtone singing tutorial" and "overtone singing lesson".

I use the lip positions less than most of the people on YouTube, because I do it with an embouchure setting. However the basic idea is the same...isolating overtones by changing vowel sounds.

Are you familiar with the "Aum" idea in Indian yogic work? The meditator sits and sings "Aum" (sometimes written as "Om") in quite long notes? Well,the basis of that idea...not often taught by popularizers because they most often simply don't know what they are doing...is that the sound "Aum"  goes from the most open vowel sounds through the most closed ones and ends up with a closed system. The "M" sound.

I was taught by David Hykes to do this backwards. (He leads an amazing vocal group called The Harmonic Choir. Worth hearing.) Start closed and slowly move to open. I guess that you could call it "Muoaei" instead of "Aum".here is the best breakdown that I have ever seen of the various physical ways that this can be done. Music of Mongolia 7/7 :Six methods of the khoomii

You take it from there.

As I said above...it's really quite easy.

The hard part is learning to hear your sound as a chord instead of a note. Making it a habit. It's a game-changer once you succeed in doing it. Yes it is.

Good luck and...stay in touch.

Sam

[Jerry Freedman]

Well, I experimented a lot with harmonic singing when I first saw your posts Sam...its a lot of fun to play with. I was taking my son to football practice and waiting in the car and I did it a lot. I could bring out overtones in several different ways...ie different mouth shapes could do pretty much the same thing--back of my tongue, front of my tongue etc so there are a lot decisions to make and a lot of trial and error.

I started to wonder about whistling which is a tried and true method ( Sail the 7C's etc) and it I realized that the problem with whistling is that it is way too tongue oriented. I see this harmonic singing/Rapa jews harp as being much more general that just tongue manipulation. Its a sort of generalization of whistling.

I also wonder if this overtone singing is more of an advanced technique..Sam you've been a Caruso disciple for years and Rapa has been at it for years too. Would the overtone stuff work better after a certain amount of embouchure strength/balance has been achieved? Could you have applied it back in your formative years?

[sabutin]

---snip---

I also wonder if this overtone singing is more of an advanced technique..Sam you've been a Caruso disciple for years and Rapa has been at it for years too. Would the overtone stuff work better after a certain amount of embouchure strength/balance has been achieved? Could you have applied it back in your formative years?

Would it work better after a certain amount of embouchure strength/balance has been achieved?

Yes, I suppose that it would.

Everything works better after a certain amount of embouchure strength/balance has been achieved.

But...could I have applied it back during my formative years?

Definitely.

I wish someone had shown me this when I was 12.

I really do.

Later...

Sam