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gibbsron
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« on: April 20, 2004, 12:23:34 PM »

:?: Can anyone tell me about the Bach 34 (New York) with a 522 bore.  When was this horn made and was it used widely in various music groups.
I found one with no lacquer left, but slide works fine.  What might this horn be comparable too?  Any users(Bach 34 that is) out there? What might it be worth?
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Equipment used:Bach Mt. Vernon 36 (best playing horn ever), Bach Strad. 36 combo., Mt. Vernon 34 (immaculate), King 3B slide/valve combo. Besson Euphonium.

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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2004, 06:41:37 PM »

pretty rare  ......8 in bell Huh??
serial number   tells year  
 -------
not  many out there  
case HuhHuhHuhHuh?
-------------
value  1000---2000
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sabutin
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2004, 09:08:07 PM »

34...

   Vincent Bach's only real failure, generally speaking.

   .518 bore, I believe.

   Smaller?

   .515?

   Something like that.

   The bells were identical to the 36s...right off the assembly line, stamped either 36 or 34 depending on which slide they were getting.

  Although Barry Rogers played a 34 for many years, his horn and the other two or three that I have played were somehow...unbalanced.

Stuffy.

   Out of tune and uneven.

Who knows?

Wrong leadpipe?

   Turbulence as the smaller slide opened up into the larger gooseneck?

Whatever...they were never popular and soon died out.

If I had a good one...a  Mt. Vernon or NY model in good shape...I would first experiment with leadpipes, and if that didn't work I'd try to get a good playing 36 slide for it or maybe have one made by Steve Shires or somebody.

Unless you love it as is...

Barry did.

He played it on a strange old plastic m'pce.

   Worked for him.

   I couldn't get his to work for me no matter WHAT I did.

   Later...

   Sam
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erling
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2004, 11:15:43 PM »

Bach 34 - the Palmer Traulsen model. Palmer (my teacher) always told the story of how he, on visiting Vincent Bach (MtVernon) suggested the slimmer version of the 36.
I stumbled across one (MtVernon of course) in 1971. Brand new. Had been sitting in the store of Marno Sørensen's for years. Bought it (played 36 then). To my eyes, the bell was almost identical to a 36, but with a slimmer/slower taper into the bell flare :shock: Knew it to be slightly smaller than the 36 (then not knowing about .525 et al). Felt like: a slightly slimmer version of my Elkhart 36. Extremely even in all registers. Impressively so. But I never broke it in, like you need to do with a new horn, especially a Bach (giving the molecules a work out, like Buddy Morrow puts it). Great horn, but didn't make it with me (I was on my looong Knepper-trip back then). Eventually traded it in for a Conn 7(2)H bass, that I eventually . . . etc. - BTW I kept the wonderful, square crocodile case!!
But the one I had was a GOOD horn. Not stuffy, ni nada. But stiffer than the broken in 36.
erling
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jakeway1
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2004, 06:13:47 AM »

I think Danny Repole played one for a while.......then moved to something different. He's been using the 34 again recently..............
Still sounds damn good at 80 yrs of age...............
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early anderson
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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2004, 06:17:15 AM »

Quote from: "jakeway1"
I think Danny Repole played one for a while.......then moved to something different. He's been using the 34 again recently..............
Still sounds damn good at 80 yrs of age...............


I think Jack Gale uses?used one and always sounds great.
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2004, 06:21:33 AM »

Quote from: "Erling"
---snip---
 To my eyes, the bell was almost identical to a 36, but with a slimmer/slower taper into the bell flare

Could be, Erling. Anything and everything happened at those factories.

But when I was considering buying  a hybrid Elkhart 36 slide/Mt. Vernon 34 bell and took it to Peppy (John Pettinato, the guy who worked for so many years at Vincent Bach’s factories), he told me that the 34 and 36 bells were interchangeable, that they were made on the same mandrels and that the only differences were in where they cut various bells if there was a special order for bell size.

Same idea with the 16/12/8/6/etc…

Quote
Knew it to be slightly smaller than the 36 (then not knowing about .525 et al). Felt like: a slightly slimmer version of my Elkhart 36. Extremely even in all registers. Impressively so.

I think what I was feeling was not exactly "stuffiness"…it just didn’t play loudly enough for me or feel as if it was projecting. (I was a Conn 78H guy at the time.)

   How Barry played as loud as he did on a 34 was beyond me.

When I did push the horn…and I don’t mean blasting, just trying to make it feel as if it was capable of acoustic projection over a strong rhythm section…it got all recalcitrant and just didn’t play right.

Now this is a syndrome that I found on all Bach designs below a 42 in size…less on the 36, less to some degree on single bore 16s (even less on the ones with Watrous style opened-up goosenecks). I wasn’t hip to the inner workings of horns then, I just played what I liked and rejected what I didn’t,  but now that I’ve learned a little something experientially on the subject while assembling a number of modular horns and altering a few older ones, I think Vincent Bach designed those horns with a certain fairly high amount of resistance in the leadpipes and gooseneck at the request of the people who were advising him.

   Professional trombonists in the NYC scene at the time.

Over and over again when I have been working with musicians who came up during the ‘30s through the ‘50s and we have been playing the music of that era in ANY idiom, they just haven’t been generally speaking as aggressive in their sonic approach as have been the next couple of generations.

   Not weak…just more relaxed, not so driven to get it out there, not so much attack, more overtones to the sound, more into blend and elegance.

As are really good Bach horns.

Duh.

Especially after W.W. II…almost everybody who was successful enough to get Mr. Bach’s ear and played smaller trombones in NYC was either working in the studios or in B’way pits. In the studio, there was always a mike, and in a pit it really doesn’t much matter WHAT you do, the sound is going to die anyway in that little space filled with big musicians.

   So like any good craftsman…he built what they wanted.

That’s my understanding of the scene, anyway.

   As scenes got more aggressive…especially in the symphonies…he designed and built the bigger, more open 42. His basses were ALWAYS fairly projecting horns, because the poor symphony bass trombonist playing all alone down there in the nether reaches of his instrument needs all the help he can get.

So Erling…maybe you got a one-off model, maybe you just had a really good one, or maybe if you had tried to break it in you would have found that it didn’t open up the way you want…who knows?

Later…

   S.


---snip---
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2004, 06:25:12 AM »

Quote from: "early anderson"
Quote from: "jakeway1"
I think Danny Repole played one for a while.......then moved to something different. He's been using the 34 again recently..............
Still sounds damn good at 80 yrs of age...............


I think Jack Gale uses?used one and always sounds great.

Jack's played the same silver plated 36/61/2 AL combination for at least 35 years.

I know, because I always tease him about it on the rare occasions we get to play together.

He and Wayne Andre are the only two really fine players I have ever known who stayed on the same equipment throughout almost all of their professional lives.

Later...

S.
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dj kennedy
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2004, 07:51:02 AM »

be bop barnes had a mv 34 in the deluxe croc box   in the 5000s
 -and  we did some  kind of a trade
    he got it  while he was in the bicentennial band
trading  w  an af sgt  who  got it  from vinnie  right out of the safe  
   bb   traded a brand new  12 or 16  foor the  34
 but he also got a  42b  in small case  w brown cotton cover
 -------anyway a  9 in bell  ---there were  some special ordered
 so  i liked the horn in practicing   jamming around etc
  but when i  used it in  concert band  
i dunno  it  wasnt  exciting or   happening that much  for me  
   so brett barlow of the ringling circus band  had been looking 4
a 34 for 8 years  
 and he had a  ny 36   no  1500  --with a little  thin split  near rim
  ---the  dimensions of this bell  --are
NOT  the  same  as modern 36s  --tuning slide  is wider
   slide is narrower  -
this horn is really great  and i could tell immediately
 that   for me  it was better than the 34  
 --------
 joe  koko  on the   left coast got a 30s  36
 fancy engraving //gold  brass slide  heavy bell
 ---obviously a  custom for  a sym  player  
good if you  need this type of  specs ///not for everybody
----------------
 im not going to   put down  34s
 and maybe if i  had  blown the crap out of the mv  
it woulda   worked   better for me  
and i woulda  learned how  to play  it
     ----maybe  not ------
----------------------
  so   accept the horn for what it is   -----
-------
  i  just got  a lonely bach 6   IV  --no  1348   tuning slide  11
 -----this is slightly differnt than  some  
w the 4 __   bell mandrel and  31  tuning slide
--------
 no  260[model 6]  ==  has a  thick bell w  very wide fat  bell bead
 --------------
call   selmer hq ----ask for denise  [even though  she has been gone for awhile]
 and pull the  shop card   ----
it will tell you  what  leadpipe tuning slide  and any custom specs
-------------------------------------------
  the  trumpets indicate  that bach  used  several  alloys  
and   tried   many ideas out  
 as far as    tapers  tuning   -
 -------if you  research the trumpets[cornets ]
a bigger picture emerges  
-----------------
 bachs are  still  variable  
 manny lopez  sold his  36glt  ---to got to a  42
the  36gly was  pretty  beat  --
but   after  soldering the  rear bell brace bach on
and   cleaning a pound of cold cream out of the slide
wow  !!!!!!!
--------
it was so good   i got another one  --lust like it  !!!!!!!!!
HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh
not  ------ nothin like it  --bell just slightly  heavier
forgetaboudit  ---------
--------------------------
ook for some kid wanting  ''the dark  sound ''
---------------------
 so  this is why a shires  is  looking like  it makes  sense
--------------------
 try another bell  !!!!!!!!!
--------
 so  the 34  is a bach like other bachs  
and may or may not    work for you
the 34 is  definitely  a sought after [until you get one]
 model ---some  collecter  might  buy and not play it
 japanese guitar collector syndrome  
----------------
 give it a try  and if if doesnt    work 4 u
try a few 36s  out  
---------
the 36 lt slide  --yeah  big change  from brass std
 an lt  in brass would be an idea  
selmer paris  --a brass outer  inbetween lt  and std
---------
   forget the 34  sell it and
 get ahold of dale  
---------
oh yeah   mannie lopez    straight -42  too big
went bach  to  a 36glt
--------
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2004, 11:31:32 AM »

I think John Swallow used to play a 34 with a valve. I heard a story about it being stolen while he was standing on line to pay for a sandwich or something...
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Gabe Langfur
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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2004, 11:59:08 AM »

Quote from: "glangfur"
I think John Swallow used to play a 34 with a valve. I heard a story about it being stolen while he was standing on line to pay for a sandwich or something...

Nahhhhh…

The TRUTH was, the horn’s value was so depressed because of its relative unpopularity that he used it to pay for the sandwich.

 Smiley  Sad  Tongue  :shock:  :lol:

   But really…although as I said it saw some use w/some pretty good players, the fact is that it was the only model that Bach made that never became popular with many, many fine trombonists.

   Size ?

   Maybe.

   It was the ultimate ‘tweener…what basketball people call someone a little too big and unwieldy to be a small forward but not big or powerful enough to play power forward.

No horn that size has EVER really been popular.

And maybe it was indeed a great horn design that not many people…myself included…ever figured out. Possibly because it was neither fish nor foul ball.

Who knows?

Not me…

S.
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William E. Gibson
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2004, 02:57:17 PM »

Sam and everyone;
I am looking at a copy of an old Bach catalog, the specs on the model 34 are:
.522 slide bore
8" bell diameter
Model 36:
.525 slide bore
8" bell diameter
Both were available with an F attachment (models 34B & 36B)
At least this is what is in the catalog.
I think Dale Kirkland played a 34 when he was with Woody Herman's band in the mid 1970's, but I am not 100% positive on that.
Hope this information is useful.
WEG
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William E. Gibson
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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2004, 03:07:24 PM »

Quote from: "William E. Gibson"
Sam and everyone;
I am looking at a copy of an old Bach catalog, the specs on the model 34 are:
.522 slide bore
8" bell diameter
Model 36:
.525 slide bore
8" bell diameter
Both were available with an F attachment (models 34B & 36B)
At least this is what is in the catalog.
I think Dale Kirkland played a 34 when he was with Woody Herman's band in the mid 1970's, but I am not 100% positive on that.
Hope this information is useful.
WEG

Could be...

I'm not really much of a Bach guy...

Could have sworn Peppy told me they were substantially different bores.

I know damned well they played differently because when I bought that Mt. Vernon 34 bell/36 slide horn I tried a couple of 34 slides with that bell. I could tell the difference blindfolded.

   The 36 slide played big, the 34 slides played small.

Leadpipe?

   Later...

   S.
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William E. Gibson
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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2004, 03:52:01 PM »

Sam;
All it says about the leadpipe is:
"The Model 34 trombone has a standard medium bore mouthpiece receiver opening 12.1 mm (.475")."
The specs on the 36 are the same except for the bore.
length (assembled) 45 5/8"
weight without mouthpiece 2lbs. 11 1/2 oz
weight of outer slide only 9 1/8 oz.
Also it states in the catalog that the 34 is
"Slightly more brilliant than Model 36."
Both 34 & 36 have the option of having a bell made of "Gold-Brass"
This is what is printed in the catalog.
If Peppy or someone else did something to the leadpipe your guess is as good as mine.
I have only played one 34 and it did not center well for me.
Maybe I played a bad one.
Really do not know.

WEG
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William E. Gibson
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2004, 11:25:56 PM »

What Bill has to add, adds up for me. Because of Palmer Traulsen, it was quite well known, over here. But he still preferred, and played, his 36B - and a King 3B for more commercial work. And yes, both with F-attachment, 34B & 36B. Mine was a strait 34 - and it WAS good. Little more centered/slim sounding/brighter.
erling
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